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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 19, 2009 17:38:22 GMT -5
Settling a bet at work...
We're talking about the 1983-84 Oilers, and the 2008-09 Penguins. Which team has better depth?
Edmonton: Forwards: Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri, Linseman, Hughes, Pouzar, Hunter, Lindstrom, Semenko, Lemley, McLean Defense: Coffey, Lowe, Huddy, Gregg, Fogolin, Jackson Goalies: Fuhr, Moog
Pittsburgh: Forwards: Crosby, Malkin, Kunitz, Guerin, Talbot, Fedotenko, Cooke, Staal, Kennedy, Dupuis, Sykora, Satan Defense: Gonchar, Letang, Orpik, Gill, Scuderi, Eaton Goalies: Fleury, Garon
Again... which team has better depth?
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Post by The Hockey Hitman on May 19, 2009 18:51:30 GMT -5
The Oilers have the better depth, and quite easily I might add. That Oilers team is one of the greatest in NHL history.
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Post by kingsfan24 on May 19, 2009 20:13:16 GMT -5
Oilers hands down. Pens are solid, but we are talking about one of the best teams to ever take the ice.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 19, 2009 23:12:51 GMT -5
but if you look at depth... the 3rd and 4th lines... the penguins are getting more production out of those lines than the oilers did. and this is an era of less scoring. the top two lines are definitely a mile stronger on the oilers squad... but by the numbers, i would argue that the penguins depth is stronger. anyway... i lost the bet. THANKS GUYS
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Post by Zipper14 on May 20, 2009 0:05:43 GMT -5
Pittsburgh might have it in net . Only because Andy Moog hadn't blossomed into the below average goalie he would eventually become.
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Post by fukufuji on May 20, 2009 11:42:35 GMT -5
Statistically I think Pens are the deeper team. When I think depth I think goals. I know there are other factors but I like to focus on goal scoring.
I calculated the goals per game for their respective regular seasons (since playoffs are not over yet) I weighted each pens player with a 32% increase in goals to even out the team scoring difference from the different eras.
I think the stats show that the oiler top players statisitcally clobber the pens, but the pens scoring spreads down the chart much further.
The first pen to dip below .30 goals per game is the 11th player where on the oilers its the 7th. The first pen below .20 is 14th, first oiler is 9th and so on. The oilers have 2 drops of .20 gpg or greater on their roster the pens have none, .10 is the pens highest drop and it only occurs once (this is an unweighted stat). Take away the top 4 players from each team and I think the pens take the oilers in a 7 game series. I also think pens have an edge with goal tending. Oilers were an amazing once in a life time team, but I think pens bring more if you are purely focused on the depth perspective.
Oilers 83-84 gpg Gretzky 1.18 Anderson 0.68 Kurri 0.56 Coffey 0.50 Lindstrom 0.30 Hunter 0.28 Hughes 0.27 Linseman 0.25 Pouzar 0.19 Gregg 0.16 Semenko 0.16 McLean 0.15 Jackson 0.13 Lemley 0.11 Huddy 0.11 Fogolin 0.06 Lowe 0.05 Pens 08-09 gpg weighted for 83-84 season Crosby 0.57 Malkin 0.56 Kunitz 0.46 Sykora 0.43 Guerin 0.39 Staal 0.35 Satan 0.35 Fedotenko 0.32 Gonchar 0.32 Kennedy 0.30 Cooke 0.23 Dupuis 0.22 Talbot 0.21 Letang 0.18 Eaton 0.08 Gill 0.04 Orpik 0.03 Scuderi 0.02
If you take away the wieght I think a bar chart would show many more steep steps in the oiler chart where the pens have more even slope with taller steps down the roster resprcively, you'd still have to mentally make an adjustment for scoring, as the pads got bigger, defencemen grew, and the trap/left wing lock started.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 20, 2009 13:14:59 GMT -5
this is exactly how i thought about it. even without weighting it... the bottom six are scoring more on the penguins. and we all know there was more scoring in general back then.
that's why i made the argument.
just look at that #5 guy... Lindstrom for the Oilers... 0.30 goals per game. And for the Pens? Lindstrom would be way down with Kennedy at #10.
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Post by Zipper14 on May 20, 2009 19:59:40 GMT -5
I don't mean to sandbag your theory Fuji, but where's Messier? He was .51gpg. Also, Kurri got 52 goals in 64 games, that's .81gpg.
Either way, your train of thought makes sense. That Oilers team had probably the best top six ever, combined with the third best regular season by a defenseman ever. But their bottom six was fairly average.
Though, we have to keep in mind that those are regular season stats, and some of the current bottom six Penguins forwards saw top six minutes during the regular season (Satan, Fedotanko, Dupuis).
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 20, 2009 21:48:54 GMT -5
who's to say those bottom six oilers didn't see some top six minutes?
point is... on paper, the penguins 3rd/4th lines are better, their defense is weaker, and their goaltending is better. but team chemistry, role playing guys, leadership in the locker room, good coaching... it all comes into play on who is/was the better team. and hands down, that's the 84 oilers.
a canadian friend at work today put it best: when the penguins win 5 stanley cups in 7 years, we can make these comparisons.
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Post by Zipper14 on May 21, 2009 0:31:47 GMT -5
All good points Zoom. Another aspect of this is the Greatness of Gretzky. The numbers he put up in the 80s are astounding. He averaged over 200 points a year when he was in his prime. Even weighted Crosby and Malkin only equal about half of Gretzky's 83-84 goals, and those are two of the best players of their time. Switch Gretzky with Malkin or Sid and the Penguins could easily be the better team.
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Post by fukufuji on May 21, 2009 8:25:03 GMT -5
I don't mean to sandbag your theory Fuji, but where's Messier? He was .51gpg. Also, Kurri got 52 goals in 64 games, that's .81gpg. Either way, your train of thought makes sense. That Oilers team had probably the best top six ever, combined with the third best regular season by a defenseman ever. But their bottom six was fairly average. Though, we have to keep in mind that those are regular season stats, and some of the current bottom six Penguins forwards saw top six minutes during the regular season (Satan, Fedotanko, Dupuis). Crud I put the numbers together a bit rapidly and messier got lost and his number probably transposed over Jari. I'd take the numbers that made it with about a 80% confidence But I think with fine tuning and correction the story would stay in tact Numbers never tell the whole story and any honest statistician will admit you can twist numbers to say most anything, This is just goals, is weighted, and inaccurate in some areas as zip has found.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 21, 2009 9:30:40 GMT -5
does anyone know what kind of line combinations those oilers rolled?
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Tomcat
Second Liner
Posts: 465
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Post by Tomcat on May 22, 2009 21:03:51 GMT -5
The comparison should be between the WINGS and the Oilers. Are you related to Betman by any chance?
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 23, 2009 0:34:58 GMT -5
haha ouch!
the wings vs. the oilers would be a good game, but not a good comparison... they don't really have that much in common, do they? tomcat... you're the group elder... maybe you can enlighten us (zing!)
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Tomcat
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Post by Tomcat on May 24, 2009 8:38:54 GMT -5
The 08-09 Wings have way more depth than the Pens as far as I'm concerned. maybe someone can break down the numbers to propove me wrong, but I don't know...
Also, the Wings are essentially a dynasty, as were the Oilers of the 80's. It makes more sense to want to see the 90's/00's Wings team(s) take on the 80's Oil. Take away Malkin and Crosby from the Pens and they aren't anything special. Take way Dats and Z, and the Wings still look good. Although, the Crosby vs Gretzky angle is very appealing, but as far as depth the Wings are deep as they come.
Besides, it can't be a secret, I don't care for Sid the Kid, Betman's golden boy toy.
And Betman's obsession with the Pens is equally nauseating. He calls them the "model franchise! " Oh really Gary? The Pens just had to suck and thus get high picks, and get VERY lucky with those picks, and that makes them the model franchise; that's ludicrous--but that's Betman all over!. The Wings have been the class of the NHL for almost 20 years. Look at the talent they have and where they drafted that talent. It doesn't take a model franchise to draft Crosby first overall with a loto pick. And back in the day, I do believe they tanked to get the high pick to draft Lemieux. But I'm getting off on a tangent...Betman has that effect on me.
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Post by leafsfan09 on May 24, 2009 10:59:20 GMT -5
Just an interesting fact that I just came across, this should help add fuel to the fire of this discussion.
The All-Time Playoff Leaders in Points per Game
#1 Gretzky 1.84 #2 Lemieux 1.61 #3 Crosby 1.41 #4 Malkin 1.32 #5 Messier 1.25
So, I would have to agree that there is some merit in the comparsion between the Pens and the 80's Oliers. Heck, this is just the top players on the teams, nevermind the depth.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 24, 2009 11:29:47 GMT -5
yeah, i saw that stat during the game yesterday... also keep in mind that there was so much more scoring back in the 80s.
here's a quote from WikiAnswers... pretty reliable, believe it or not.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 24, 2009 11:33:20 GMT -5
And back in the day, I do believe they tanked to get the high pick to draft Lemieux. yeah, this is true. i bet if you look at the stats, pittsburgh's number are better than detroit. but detroit's real talent doesn't lie in the numbers... it's the puck possession, and the defensive awareness. but, i mean, we'll probably find out in a couple of weeks here, eh?
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Post by fukufuji on May 24, 2009 12:27:28 GMT -5
..
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Tomcat
Second Liner
Posts: 465
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Post by Tomcat on May 25, 2009 16:27:17 GMT -5
Just an interesting fact that I just came across, this should help add fuel to the fire of this discussion. The All-Time Playoff Leaders in Points per Game #1 Gretzky 1.84 #2 Lemieux 1.61 #3 Crosby 1.41 #4 Malkin 1.32 #5 Messier 1.25 . Interesting, i tend to under appreciate Messier because he played with Gretzky. Wings vs. Penguins rematch will be a good finals. I'm looking forward to it. My dad's side of the family is from Pittsburgh, so I've actually always kind of liked the Penguins....until Crosby that is.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 25, 2009 17:48:16 GMT -5
now do you actually hate crosby? or just the fact that the NHL loves him so much?
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Tomcat
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Post by Tomcat on May 26, 2009 7:54:07 GMT -5
I don't "hate" Crosby, but I don't like him... he irks me. I don't like his face, or his name. He looks so prissy, and that name... "Sidney," It's just so girly; the two don't go well together. His personality is non existent, he's captain lame-o. When you take all that, and mix it with the NHL's obsession with this guy it spells marketing failure IMO (but that's Betman). Sidney's image seems much more like that of a figure skater, than a hockey player.
He might play great sure...then leave it at that. Show him skating, scoring, and even fighting (but not to us Americans, god knows we're not about that). Show his on ice heroics, but leave that lame a$$ non personality at home. It's Crosby's skill that makes him a celeb, not his "personality."
And I'm sick of Betman's obsession wth this guy... and god I do HATE Betman.I don't like that Crosby is some golden boy with the key's to Betman's NHL kingdom planted in his a$$ at birth it seems. Who made that decision for we the fans? There are a lot of other great players out there. Maybe in time I'll like Crosby, but right now he's a snot nosed, spoiled, silver spooned (by Betman) priss. I'm sick of him, and I can't wait for Hossa and the Wings to kick his whinny a$$ in the cup finals.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 26, 2009 9:37:35 GMT -5
we'll see.
i can't disagree with most of that. he's clearly spoiled, he has a reputation for being whiny, and he has no personality.
that said, as bettman realizes that ovechkin is his better PR figure, some of the spotlight will come off crosby. meanwhile, hopefully, in maturing with the help of teammates like Bill Guerin, Sid should hopefully be able to gain a little bit of that personality.
he has always seemed to me, though, like a kid whose parents forced him into hockey at a young age and didn't let him do anything else. even in those interviews with him at age 15, he's like a publicity robot. it's weird.
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Post by fukufuji on May 26, 2009 10:27:08 GMT -5
I felt the same way last year. I think Sidney has matured a lot as a result of last year's playoff and this regular season. They faced a lot of adversity and I think its built them into a championship team. Sidney is leading by example, his rookieish whining and diving are way down. But more importantly he is leading by example playing both ways and leaving nothing on the ice when his shift is done. His skill at the net is unbeleivable, not just his ability to come off the wall into a scoring position but more so if you throw it at the net on the rush with Sid in front, it seems like its going in 90% of the time. The guy can chip pucks past flailing goalies like noone I've ever seen and I have to admit it is very entertaining to watch. I used to feel like he was forced down my throat, but now I feel like he has crossed over to where his accomplishments have earned him his spot in the limelight.
I think the cup may be determined by injuries, if the wings can't get Daytsuk and Lidstrom back and if more people are put on IR I don't know if they can beat a healthy pens team. Same thing the other way gonchar, crosby, malkin, and crew have to stay healthy. Hossa is also a key variable, he stepped up big with wing's stars out.
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Post by Zipper14 on May 26, 2009 11:40:23 GMT -5
Maybe the Wings are the Islanders and the Pens are the Oilers. The Oilers were swept by the Islanders in 82-83. It was the first time the Oilers had been to the finals, and the last cup win for the Islanders dynasty. The next year the Oilers beat the Islanders in the finals to win the first of their 5 cups in 7 years.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 26, 2009 11:45:00 GMT -5
important to remember though... the wings didn't sweep the pens last year... not even close.
the big question all the pundits are talking about now is whether the 2009 Pens are better than the 2008 Pens. Personally, as a fan, I think they're a lot better now than they were a year ago. I wonder what you guys think?
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Post by fukufuji on May 26, 2009 12:00:20 GMT -5
I think Hossa gave them a better top 3 last year on paper but Malkin and Crosby have improved their game to offset the loss of Hossa. Satan and Guerin are great additions and Feditanko has proved to be a clutch player. I think the pens are hands down better this year.
The loss of Gonchar is probably what made the regular season such a struggle and they didn't add Guiren and Feditanko till later in the season if I remember right. Its hard to find any flaw in their roster right now.
I think the wings will be able to key in defense on Crosby, Gonchar and MAlkin better than any of the teams they faced so far. But wings are going to need to be healthy to accomplish that. The wings can shoot it out with Pens even if down a few players but would be defensually challenged without Lids and Dats.
Shaping up to be a good story line, no disrespect to CHI and CAR of course, I'm still speaking hypothetically.
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Post by Zoom Waffles on May 26, 2009 12:15:57 GMT -5
fedotenko came in over the summer like satan. Kunitz was added at the deadline to give some muscle to that top line.
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Post by leafsfan09 on May 26, 2009 22:00:05 GMT -5
The focus of this discussion has changed a bit, but both Malkin and Crosby look unbeliveable right now. Bettman saved the Pens when he so kindly gave them Crosby (my opinion on the lock out year draft) with relative arguments, but that is opening another can of worms. Anywho, the Finals are shaping up to be a great re-match and one that I am looking forward to watching, although Bettman does have to get his lips of Sid's ass. I mean really, why market one player when you have a league full of the best players in the world? Makes no sense to me. (zoomwaffles: sorry, had to censor! )
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Post by Shredded Red on Jun 16, 2009 9:29:29 GMT -5
I think the Pen's are the next big dynasty in the league. I don't know many who don't think this.
As far as that exact Oiler team vs. this years Pens....only history will tell. I don't think this team is going to be remembered as the Pens "dynasty team"....I think their best teams are still yet to come because Crosby and Malkin are still at the cuff of their prime (scary thought), players like Letang, Talbot, and Kennedy probably haven't reached their potential yet either, and they've still got some decent young guys in the minors if I recall correctly.
I love the comparison of the early 80 Islanders vs. Oilers though because the past two years have been a repeat of that passing of the torch. I'm sure the Wings are still going to be big time contenders because their franchise is so strong, but you knew last year that it was the hockey goliath vs. the rookie davids....and the Wings were going to roll the Pens on experience alone. I half expected a rematch this year and when it happened I didn't have much faith that the Wings were going to win because the Pens would come in with more fight and fire.
In a way, whether Wings fans want to admit it or not, this years cup was the passing of the torch. The Pens are going to be the next big dynasty and hockey is going to have a boom here soon as you look at the rivalries already developing around this passing of power. Every year.... Pens vs Caps in the east just to get to the final, and I have no doubt the Wings will probably face both of them in the final at some point again. And lets not forget the potential of a renewed rivalry between Detroit and Chicago in the west.
It's starting to look like old time hockey is on the rise again in a new era!
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